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Post by nixin on May 12, 2008 18:01:08 GMT
orbik: I did a quick mix&master from the dry tracks you provided. Don't expect much, that was a 30 min job: some EQ, auto panning, a bunch of exciters here and there, some reverb, stereo and spectrum widening, etc... nothing fancy. I think it might be a little "overmastered", any comments highly appreciated. Download hereAnyway, I wonder why do you record at 48kHz ? I'll ask my friend about the drums recording. He's a pro progressive rock drummer, kg plays with him in a band (Dream Theater, Liquid Tension Project covers). I'm a programmer, but with no time on my hands. Didn't have time to look thru the code yet and I never did this kind of thing (MIDI stuff in C...). EDIT: I think the drums are too silent EDIT2: Lol, and the guitars are too far in the back... I think. I need a breath of fresh air...
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sharp
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Post by sharp on May 12, 2008 18:36:22 GMT
This stuff is great! I make music as well, but I have no idea how to remix without midi :c
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Post by yuriks on May 12, 2008 21:14:02 GMT
Very good. I like your recordings orbik. The nixin master sounds better on some parts but lacks some punch, I'm sure that you can make it perfect with a bit of tweaking.
Also, intro bass note needs more throbbing.
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Post by nixin on May 12, 2008 21:30:38 GMT
Very good. I like your recordings orbik. The nixin master sounds better on some parts but lacks some punch, I'm sure that you can make it perfect with a bit of tweaking. Thanks. Indeed, it doesn't sound that great after all, at parts. There are quite dull parts. Well, I it was done in a hurry. When I'll have some time I'll play with it a bit more. Also, intro bass note needs more throbbing. Indeed. I think a low-pass filter with automation on the cut frequency with accelerated sine should do the trick. Will experiment with this later.
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Post by kg on May 12, 2008 21:58:16 GMT
Yeah, but remember - when you're in hustle, there will be bustle!
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sharp
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Post by sharp on May 12, 2008 22:21:56 GMT
I just started working on a transon remix...
it isnt as top notch as nix&kg's or orbiks is because i am so used to creating from scratch and adding new things, but i'm still giving it a try...
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Post by orbik on May 13, 2008 12:21:32 GMT
Ok, I listened to your mix and made some observations: - Overall it seems to have a quite unusual scooped tone (not enough midrange). Remember that in mastering you should make the track sound as "neutral" to other tracks of an album as possible. Having good studio monitors should help too.. I've used AKG's studio headphones which have a good frequency response and reasonable price tag (not in the thousands ) but mixing with "perfect" fidelity makes it harder to make something sound good on other sound sources. - The synth line seems to have a strong peak eq at 2-5 kHz which makes it sound unbalanced with the filter cutoff changes. I never meant it to have noticeable presence. - When using dynamic processors (compressors) make sure you set a low enough attack rate, or use a limiter to kill those transients. There were noticeable unwanted spikes on almost all tracks. - The drums sounded quite (very) dry (and quiet). To get a better punch I had first a 3 band compressor to kill some of the peaks on "bass", "snare", and "cymbal" frequency ranges, then a room reverb and another compressor/limiter (threshold -10dB, ratio ~1.8:1, and enough output gain to have the limiter cut the signal only on occassional peaks) Other than those, no complaints, good job.. but then, what was the issue in my mix you wanted to address? The files are in 48 kHz because that's what my sound card's dsp operates at interally (most efficiently on asio). If you need 44.1 kHz, it's best to downsample after mixing. Oh and the .lds is a quite straightforward tracker format, so you don't need to know about midi. sharpAt least the way I work is pretty much "from scratch", mostly played (or step edited) by ear. After all the midis are a mess, and I see no value in copying the exact notes when they're meant to be played specifically on adlib.
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Post by kg on May 13, 2008 18:35:10 GMT
Orbik, I don't think that these notes was meant to be played specifically on adlib, it's just that MIDis which Borg made have too much tracks (for example you have identical tracks and the only difference between them is delay - let's assume that's only one track in LDS), or some extra empty tracks and extra notes which are unaudible and of course that they are desynced. In my opinion the best way to produce accurate remixes is to synchronize those midis, because then you could have perfect overview of the song. I'll start doing this and I will also make another topic where you will find those Midis. BTW I'm impressed that you've done this Tyrian Song remix by ear It's a good training.
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Post by nixin on May 13, 2008 21:12:00 GMT
- Overall it seems to have a quite unusual scooped tone (not enough midrange). Very, very true - this is what I called "overmastering" before. The mid's are way to far in the back. You know, I had a "loud" day that day so my hearing could've been impared then too. I've just listened to my ogg now - I would change quite a lot right now. Remember that in mastering you should make the track sound as "neutral" to other tracks of an album as possible. Having good studio monitors should help too.. I've used AKG's studio headphones which have a good frequency response and reasonable price tag (not in the thousands ) but mixing with "perfect" fidelity makes it harder to make something sound good on other sound sources. Yeah, I agree. I use both the AKG Studio Monitor Headphones K141 the Ultimate Ears Super.Fi 5 Pro and my Tannoy M2 monitors at home. - The synth line seems to have a strong peak eq at 2-5 kHz which makes it sound unbalanced with the filter cutoff changes. I never meant it to have noticeable presence. Will look into that. I got more out of the synth line, cause I felt like it was in the background and it has a solo motive at one moment (I think you could say that). - When using dynamic processors (compressors) make sure you set a low enough attack rate, or use a limiter to kill those transients. There were noticeable unwanted spikes on almost all tracks. Oh, that awful transients. Didn't have time to deal with them. I know, they're most hearable on synth 2 and the guitars. The mix was really just a 30-minute mockup, not by any chance a "production master". - The drums sounded quite (very) dry (and quiet). To get a better punch I had first a 3 band compressor to kill some of the peaks on "bass", "snare", and "cymbal" frequency ranges, then a room reverb and another compressor/limiter (threshold -10dB, ratio ~1.8:1, and enough output gain to have the limiter cut the signal only on occassional peaks) Drums are something I'm not very good at yet (to be honest I mastered a drum track in a song only once in my life). Thanks a lot for the "drums tips". Other than those, no complaints, good job.. but then, what was the issue in my mix you wanted to address? "other than those" yeah, that was a pretty crappy mix. The issue? Well, to be honest it lacked some life, the "thunder drum" was a bit flat, "acoustic guitar" also, the drums were I think too loud (though I turned them down wayy too much) and sounded kinda' "intrusive", if you know what I mean. Also the Viola Sect. lacked some definition and was too wet in my opinion. Synth 1 was in the back, Synth 2 was just begging for a little autopan+pan automation and delay chopper filter . I also think it lacked some lows. Ah, and the stereo image was a bit too narrow. The files are in 48 kHz because that's what my sound card's dsp operates at interally (most efficiently on asio). If you need 44.1 kHz, it's best to downsample after mixing. I see. Well, converting means dithering, and that means some sort of quality compromise. Oh and the .lds is a quite straightforward tracker format, so you don't need to know about midi. Yeah, but I ment that I would need to have knowledge about MIDI format in order to make a converter. I can "reverse engineer" most of the format specifics just by looking at a MIDI file and some midi player's source code, but still some parts, like the header are a mistery to me, would need to find some site/pdf on that ;-) A object-oriented library for midi in C++ would be awesome too - it most definetly exists, but again I would have to search for it, for which I don't have time. (I acctually don't have time to do any kind of hobby-thing lately). Thanks again for your thoughts, mostly appreciated!
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Post by orbik on May 13, 2008 21:23:23 GMT
Almost everything in the lds files is specifically for adlib, except just one field per instrument for a GM patch number. The MIDI out in Tyrian is a rather cheap compatibility layer that doesn't reproduce everything in the pattern data (portamento, vibrato...). For instance listen to Rock Garden in MIDI.. there's no pitch bends in the lead guitar and it sounds wrong.
Even more to the point, the lds's in Tyrian aren't exactly "the originals" either.. for one, Brandon said that "Return me to Savara" (in the game) is an adaptation by Andras Molnar to lds format from a MOD he'd made earlier, so copying them blindly is a bit like automatic translation from a mediocre translation. Much thought and reason is lost in the process. So IMO you get the best result by listening to the lds's through adlib to get a good approximation of the original intention, then skip the whole midi crap and seek to recreate the *intention* with whatever instruments you have at your disposal. Of course this method is always subject to personal interpretation, but that's what makes things interesting. :-) Also it requires quite a bit more musical skill, but isn't that what the musicians are for?
EDIT: Nix, I thought we're talking about a lds<->at2 converter (at2 = Adlib Tracker II), so midi wouldn't be involved.
EDIT2: Of course the midi files are useful for listening/analyzing tracks one at a time. And there's nothing wrong with direct copying if it's "obvious".
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Post by kg on May 13, 2008 21:39:11 GMT
I agree orbik, it's all right, that's what musicians are for. I think that listening to the original is the best way to produce your own remix, but when you have good version of MIDIs, you just have to assign instruments and put some effects so it would sound like the original. On the other hand, making everything "from scratch" is somehow better. Imagine a guy who downloads MIDi, adds some instruments and says "woah I'm pro musician" . Or there could be third option, the best of all: make synced MIDIs, then do a recording based on your ear and finally check with the MID if something is missing So lds->mid could be a big help if there was one. Sry about my grouching.
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Post by orbik on May 13, 2008 21:47:03 GMT
Yes, but I said the lds's aren't all that original, more like compromises. And a conversion to .mid even less so. Besides, "assigning an instrument" is risky business. Different instruments need different input data to sound good.
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sharp
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Post by sharp on May 14, 2008 0:59:10 GMT
I think this is the first time Google has failed me with a search (lds to .mid) It was a good run my fellow google.
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Post by kg on May 14, 2008 8:39:25 GMT
I agree with you orbik. I think that conclusion would be: if you want to enjoy the closest effect to original thoughts of composer, just install adplug and play lds, or play the game and if you want to create your own interpretation of that music, make a remix (it doesn't matter if you use the midi or not - only effect is important). Who said that it has to be like original? For instance I like your remix of Tyrian Song or Savara better than original (though you added some extra motifs like ending of Savara which is very good).
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Post by orbik on May 17, 2008 0:36:47 GMT
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