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Post by grezzo16 on Jan 26, 2009 9:41:48 GMT
hi to everyone
i'm wondering if the original Tyrian is played at nowadays or everyone Switched to opentyrian.
so this is the poll!
what are you playing?
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Post by yuriks on Jan 26, 2009 16:08:17 GMT
I'm obviously biased, but the little Tyrian I play these days is on OpenTyrian during play testing. =)
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Post by SM on Jan 27, 2009 1:27:23 GMT
Well, I can play Tyrian on my PC, and OpenTyrian in my phone, DS, Wii... still, Tyrian 2000 is my fav
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Post by mdz8 on Jan 28, 2009 7:25:33 GMT
I'm sorry to say but The old one (with 3 episodes!) is still the one fitting best my tastes.
Open has some advanteges such a lower CPU usage (although it isn't much of a win considering it's running native), which is important to me as I'm cursed in buying midrange to low-end HW, but it still seeds lots of work.
Such as using .txt user files for first, or having proper installing instructions for second...
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Post by grezzo16 on Jan 28, 2009 7:50:32 GMT
for the instructions i'm working to update them, even under Linux and under Windows. so stay tuned  |
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Post by yuriks on Jan 28, 2009 14:33:09 GMT
I'm sorry to say but The old one (with 3 episodes!) is still the one fitting best my tastes. Open has some advanteges such a lower CPU usage (although it isn't much of a win considering it's running native), which is important to me as I'm cursed in buying midrange to low-end HW, but it still seeds lots of work. Such as using .txt user files for first, or having proper installing instructions for second... Using txt files? What? |
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Post by atlasdark on Jan 28, 2009 17:13:46 GMT
The minimum requirements for Tyrian is a 486. A good $200 (or even barebones with cheap hardware) desktop nowadays is equipped with at LEAST A P2/Intel Accelerated Media chipset (GMX), which is overkill in terms of requirements.
Though when run (on XP/Vista with XP compatibility layer), there is no sound initially, there are solutions (DOSBox, etc), which don't require a much faster system.
As for text files, I'm with yuriks on this one. Or do you mean using txt to store user data, or what?
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Post by yuriks on Jan 28, 2009 18:44:24 GMT
Sorry but DOSBox DOES require a much faster system, at least if you intend to run on Pentium.
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Post by atlasdark on Jan 28, 2009 21:35:57 GMT
The compatibility layer's demands are negligible to most modern systems. Not like we're using 42k CPU cycles to emulate maploads of sprites.  P1 system... Legacy by now. |
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Post by yuriks on Jan 28, 2009 23:14:30 GMT
I don't see the point you're trying to make here. A Pentium 2 certainly can NOT run Tyrian under DOSBox at full speed. (Heck, I couldn't run Tyrian at full speed under DOSBox with an Athlon XP.) It should be able to confortably handle OpenTyrian just like it handled the original, however.
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Post by atlasdark on Jan 29, 2009 0:58:43 GMT
Doesn't explain how my archaic Toshiba Satellite Pro (A2xx series I think) can run Tyrian (albeit with lower gfx settings, so kudos to you there).
With the original, low-end systems can make the cut, and damage to one's face from contact with the keyboard with a degree of force is minimal, and those with better systems will have no blood splatters on their precious box.
In a nutshell, of course not at full speed, but I'm not trying to prove that; I'm merely stating that it can run and is otherwise playable without the need for a latter day system. :/
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Post by mdz8 on Jan 29, 2009 14:02:43 GMT
Such as using .txt user files for first, or having proper installing instructions for second... Using txt files? What? I mean that COPYING should really be COPYING.txt (and use CRLF newline convention, which, surprisingly is already used by config files), same applies to README which should also include a link to www.libsdl.org/ or, if the license allows it, directly to www.libsdl.org/release/SDL-1.2.13-win32.zip (and the others OS links). Considering SDL.dll is a whopping 314KB, including the runtimes could also be considered. Yeah, you already point it out in the forum thread. This isn't how it's supposed to work. It could also note that a "data" directory is required. Ready to go mods:
To play:
- Tyrian 2.1 data files which have been released for free:
http://camanis.net/tyrian/tyrian21.zip
Those files should be decompressed in a "data" subdirectory, see below for more notes.
- A SDL runtime
(SDL.dll is included in Windows builds other OSes should have this in the system already, see http://www.libsdl.org on need).
P1 system... Legacy by now. And so what? Let's get this straight: if you need a 10x faster system to do the same thing that was going already it's just clear as light something wrong is going on. As you may have noticed in the last few months the whole market switched from a "Pay some, do more" attitude to a more sustainable " Do the same for less". Telling users everything is fine is going to be not acceptable soon. More on system performance below. Sorry but DOSBox DOES require a much faster system, at least if you intend to run on Pentium. This is fact I think everybody agrees. In my previous message, I wrote that " Open has some advanteges such a lower CPU usage (although it isn't much of a win considering it's running native)". I think it is worth explaining why I consider this a gray win as opposed to a hands down comparison. To compare original tyrian in dosbox (from now on TD) and opentyrian (OT) I wanted, this time, to compare accurately. I set my dosbox to 22000 cycles with scaler normal2x and pentium detail. OT doesn't have a detail level but it looks like pentium, scaler is 2x as scale2x seems to perform some smarter filtering. I initially ran the tests with hq2x but the results were odd to say the least. I played Tyrian, holes (which I think to be one the most "layer intensive" levels in the original game) and Asteroid2 with similar equipment. I also compared CPU usage using AMD PowerMon this time, which is typically a few percentage points off the task manager (everybody knows it's not always accurate, as it probably isn't powermon but I keep Cool&Quiet under control)... this time I went for a more similar comparison. Using PowerMon essentially made me think again at my previous statement about the advantages as I was rather shocked by the results. After some observation, I'm not even sure OpenTyrian really wins. | Level | Implem. | Notes | CPU % | | Tyrian | TD | Plays ok-ish, albeit with some sporadic sound stuttering and slowdowns. CPU usage is typically between 40% and 80% most of the time (with CPU going down to 1Ghz rather often). Stuttering seems to occur because of some disk access or maybe due to DosboxVM switching cores? Dosbox assumes QWERTY keyboard layout for character input. | 40-80 | | Tyrian | OT | Seems to be much smoother, CPU being almost always in the 60-75% range, 1Ghz operation never kicks in, meaning that CPU usage is higher. But the experience is improved so it's a good deal right? It's still alot of power for a 320x200 x2 window.
OT seems to manage its mouse focus in a rather odd way (are apps supposed to focus when not on top?). | 60-75 | | Holes | TD | It's a pain. This multi-layer madness seems to take its toll on the poor dosbox. The game is playable, albeit a bit slower. CPU usage fluctuates heavily between 30% and 80% with the CPU going to 1Ghz for large amounts of time. Strangely enough, there's no more stuttering (doxbox probably locked core). | 30-80 | | Holes | OT | Exhibits the same performance pattern being at 65-75% range, locked at 1.8Ghz. The level, compared to dosbox speed is lighting fast. I remember holes was basically a punishment as a first bonus, so I think this is how it's supposed to work. | 65-75 | | Asteroid 2 | TD | Way simplier to draw. It is so simplier TD has minor slowdowns (I suppose due to dosbox yelding after finishing its work too early). The CPU is generally in the 50-80 range. The low workload causes entering 1Ghz mode periodically, leading to the higher CPU usage on a per-second basis. | 50-80 | | Asteroid 2 | OP | Seems to also have a small benefit ranging at 50-70%, locked again at 1.8Ghz. | 50-70 |
: remember that dosbox is essentially an emulator. This means that, in the most favourable scenario, each instruction becomes slower than the most intensive native instruction. Dosbox runs alot of machinery under the hood and is somewhat justified in taking so much power. OT runs native... it should then have similar performance than the original implementation... even assuming huge prices to pay to work in a GUI-driven world, the CPU usage should be no higher than 20%, or 45% on a 1Ghz processor, end even this is pretending that a 1Ghz processor to be just ten 486s. But looking at it from a different perspective, what is that part of OpenTyrian that continues taking basically the same footprint on all levels? OT eats 5% less CPU in Asteroid for me. I'm tempted to speculate that this difference is the speedup in the "core" code (supposing it's not a fluctuation) . Most of the rest is ... ? ? ? Can the culprit be incorrect video mangling? Both dosbox and OT use SDL so this seems to not be an issue. So in short... good luck with your code! |
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Post by yuriks on Jan 29, 2009 17:43:52 GMT
Just a check, did you test using OpenTyrian's release builds?
Anyway, here are mine results: All results are on Tyrian the level, Normal speed, Pentium detail.
OpenTyrian Debug: about 6% 35fps
Tyrian on DOSBox 30000 cycles: about 2% 35fps
While we are less efficient with CPU time, (I used a Profiler and don't know why, we spend 75% of the code time on delay functions.) it's only a slight difference.
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Post by mdz8 on Jan 30, 2009 8:11:05 GMT
I used opentyrian-enhanced-w32-r842.zip, the splash screen says it's a Release build. Benchmarking debug builds doesn't make much sense, or does it?
As a reference, I have a Sempron3000 core Venice.
I think I've never seen a 2% usage in DosBox, even the old constructor bob runs about 16% (at 1Ghz).
How am I supposed to enable framerate counters and limit to 35FPS?
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Post by grezzo16 on Jan 30, 2009 8:36:10 GMT
hi to everyone
i'm using open tyrian enhanced 854 release (not debug) and when i'll have some spare time i'll test it.
anyway i would like to say that i have any problems with mouse, any with sound, any with speed, everything with a simple intel t5500 with hq4x scale and fullscreen.
and now there are rumors to bringing tyrian2000 "updates" also to opentyrian.
if this will be done with the correct details and gameplay, IN MY OPINION there will be any reason to play wth the old tyrian (also if the OpenTyrian consume more cpu (for now)).
byeee
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